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Talk:Legion
ken Is There a Confirmation That He Will Be a Squadmember? Where is it confirmed that he is a squadmember? :The NowGamer article linked in the article confirms that the geth shown in the first teaser trailer could become a member of your team, and the trailer in question was named the 'Legion' Trailer on the Bioware site prior to the revamp. --TheWilsonator 04:29, November 6, 2009 (UTC) :: it doesn't confirm it, it says that "apparently". Also kinda strange that Legion is shown in "enemies" video. And there is no official confirmation from Bioware devs that he is a squadmember. ::: While the 'apparently' wording makes it somewhat less solid, (I think he was just covering his arse because Bioware was still keeping a lot of info under wraps, including Legion), the article in OXM also mentions that players will "really connect" with the character, hinting that he will be around for the haul. They also gush about his emotive expressions etc. He appears in the 'enemies' trailer, but it doesn't necessarily mean he won't join you. It wouldn't be the first time Bioware let an former foe join your squad. They could also be throwing people off with his geth connection. In fact, the whole character seems exist at least partly to subvert the 'every geth is mindless and hostile' trope. Now if only they'd show us a nice batarian... --TheWilsonator 05:13, November 6, 2009 (UTC) ::::'Nice' and 'Batarian' do not go together :P I'd rather be able to satisfactorily smash that one from BDTS between all four eyes with the butt of a rifle. I have a grudge against those guys in particular, mainly because of the DLC. Phylarion 10:28, November 6, 2009 (UTC) Legion as a He They refer to him several times as a 'he' in the recent trailer. --TheWilsonator 09:14, November 8, 2009 (UTC) :Ok, but Legion refers to itself as we. If it doesn't consider itself male, and it is a synthetic, asexual being, how can it be classed a he? SpartHawg948 09:15, November 8, 2009 (UTC) :: True, but his voice and build are masculine- and bioware refer to him as male. Many fictional bots and AIs are classed as masculine and feminine based on their general personality, voice and appearance, such as HK and Avina on this very wiki. I think we can safely assume it's a dude geth. --TheWilsonator 09:19, November 8, 2009 (UTC) :::So, all geth are males? He has the same build as the standard geth trooper. As for the voice, it's synthetic, and most likely programmed in, not something Legion changed on a whim. Seeing as it has a cookie-cutter build standard for it's race, has a synthesized voice that as far as we know was not of it's own choosing, and has (as yet) no demonstrated male personality (even contradicting this theory by calling itself "we"), then by your own logic, I think we should keep referring to it as "it". Remember, we're not in the business of making assumptions in the articles here, safe or not. SpartHawg948 09:24, November 8, 2009 (UTC) :::Fair enough, but what about the Bioware referral? --TheWilsonator 09:29, November 8, 2009 (UTC) ::::Plenty of people refer to the asari as "She", including BioWare people, but they too are genderless (or monogendered, rather) beings. It was probably just something that came naturally. It's not natural to refer to a sentient being as "it" in conversation, and that tends to kinda leap out as unusual. It was most likely a slip of the tongue, and at the end of the day, the ultimate canon source is the game, and so far it points towards a gender neutral Legion. Now, as with everything where I take a strict speculation-busting, better safe than sorry approach, if it does turn out that Legion is acknowledged as being w/ male programming/personality, I'll happily step aside. Till then, if an asexual synthetic being calls itself "we", I'm gonna go ahead and not make gender assumptions. SpartHawg948 09:37, November 8, 2009 (UTC) ::::: Ok, I was just wondering since you hadn't addressed that point yet. No need for the barbs. --TheWilsonator 09:38, November 8, 2009 (UTC) ::::I'm sorry, not sure what you're referring to. I don't see any "barbs" in my post, I was merely addressing the point, which I had thought was already covered. After all, Legion's use of the "we" to refer to itself WAS written by the BioWare people, likely with much more forethought than went into the casual use of "he" by someone in an interview. Again, though, not really sure what "barbs" are being referred to, I was merely answering your query to the best of my ability. SpartHawg948 09:44, November 8, 2009 (UTC) ::::: No worries, I was probably just being paranoid. Let's just wait for future interviews or the game to shed some light on all this. --TheWilsonator 09:45, November 8, 2009 (UTC) :Legion isn't referring to himself as "we", he's referring to the geth as "we", both his spoken lines are clearly talking about the geth (or maybe more broadly, synthetics) in general, not himself: "We do not experience fear, but we understand how it affects you" and "Organics do not choose to fear us is is a function of your hardware". I think "he" is fine, or instead follow the standard set by Sovereign and just refer to hi..th..he... it as Legion. JakePT 08:02, November 19, 2009 (UTC) ::Do you have sourcing supporting the claim that Legion is referring to the collective and not itself? Because that is far from obvious in the videos released so far. It doesn't really seem to add up that the first geth to think as an individual would speak in terms of the collective. Again, as I hypothesized below, it could be referring to itself but saying we and us as a holdover from it's time in the collective. Honestly, I don't see why it's such a contentious idea to refer to a genderless synthetic being as it. SpartHawg948 08:30, November 19, 2009 (UTC) :::There's no reason to think that it isn't. The idea that a geth, individual or not, would refer to themselves as "we" and "us" has been completely pulled out of thin air, not to mention that the two occasions he refers to "we" and "us" the traits he is referring to are not specific to Legion, and are better understood as referring to all geth or synthetics. Also, referring to oneself as "me" instead of "we" would, if I had to guess, be the first thing that such a being would start doing. Anyway, if a crazy person referred to themselves as "we" no one would call them "they" so it's not really relevent to the he/it discussion anyway. I propose we just go with shklee. :P :::Anyway, this isn't a debate that's going to be settled by the Mass Effect wiki, since it hasn't been settled anywhere else. :::http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutral_pronoun :::JakePT 08:49, November 19, 2009 (UTC) ::::Yeah, it was pretty much pulled out of the same thin air as the assumption that an individual conversing with another individual would refer to itself as part of a collective it has evolved beyond. As for a crazy person, if it was a crazy GENDERLESS SYNTHETIC I'd refer to it as an it, not a he or she. Comparing a self-aware sentient genderless synthetic to an insane human is beyond apples and oranges, it's apples and watermelons. :) SpartHawg948 08:54, November 19, 2009 (UTC) :::::I think you are mistaken about what "we" implies. If Legion says "we" in a way that includes the Geth, it does not mean he necessarily believes himself to be a part of the Geth collective. There are multiple layers of inclusiveness. It could mean "we, as synthetics, do not experience fear..." it could mean "we, as members of the Geth species,..." it could mean "we, as members of the Geth collective,..." I think everyone agrees with you that it is unlikely that Legion intends the last meaning. But we are saying that it is far more likely that he intends the first two (we=synthetics or we=Geth species), than it is for Legion to intend "we=itself."-- 20:21, December 1, 2009 (UTC) ::::::Fair enough... you think I'm mistaken, and I think there's a very real chance it's you who are mistaken. Hooray for differences of opinion and disagreeing without being disagreeable! However, do want to point out, jik you start making edits to actual articles, please refer to the policy for alien race names, as the proper way to phrase it on this wiki is of course "geth", "geth collective" and "we=geth species". As for the rest, as I stated several times, it's just a theory, and honestly it's not that original on my part, as I drew from some of the Star Trek episodes where Borg were separated from their collective, so we'll just have to wait and see! The original point about not referring to a genderless synthetic with no discernible gender-specific programming who either refers to itself as we or has not yet done so at all, however, still stands! SpartHawg948 20:32, December 1, 2009 (UTC) ::::In an aside, as stated above I am perfectly happy changing the references to him, his, he, whatev if it is shown that Legion refers to itself thusly. I'm with TheWilsonator, we should wait for more conclusive videos or the game itself before making these changes though. SpartHawg948 08:56, November 19, 2009 (UTC) Personally I think he is refering to himself as "we". I'm willing to bet my left testicle that he's made up of multiple Geth, and therefore is probably a neural network in himself. Which would explain his higher intelligence. Just speculating.. lol :).-- 01:39, December 12, 2009 (UTC) Gender Neutral Referencing It occurred to me that we have been referring to Legion as "he". No evidence has been presented that Legion considers itself male or possesses masculine personality/programming. In fact, Legion refers to itself as "we", likely as a hold-over from it's time in the geth "collective" (although that is pure speculation on my part). So, reworded the article to replace all the he with it, and his with its. Please make sure to make your edits accordingly as well. Also, please make sure one and all to avoid gender-specific references to Shepard (i.e. Shepard and his squad). Thanks, SpartHawg948 09:15, November 8, 2009 (UTC) : Legion is a genderless "it." The developers tend to refer to it as "he" because the voice actor is male. At least that's the way I left it. Stormwaltz 02:12, November 10, 2009 (UTC) ::Yeah, that was pretty much my take on it too. SpartHawg948 05:15, November 10, 2009 (UTC) ::: "He" refers to himself as we wouldnt it be more appropriate to refer to him as "they" (that was the most retarded thing anyone wrote ever) ::::Do what now? Near as I can tell those words were never entered here till you entered them, ralok. Or were you claiming that what you just posted was "the most retarded thing anyone wrote ever"? SpartHawg948 09:11, November 18, 2009 (UTC) :::::Ralok, I'm going to ask you for the last time: watch your language when posting. You have already been warned both by myself and by SpartHawg, and those warnings are apparently being ignored. Almost all your edits to talk pages have been combative, if not downright rude. If you're referring to another user's comment as "retarded", that is unacceptable; if you're referring to yourself, given the sentence isn't clear it could cause confusion or offence to other users. If I see this again, you face a ban. --Tullis 15:22, November 18, 2009 (UTC) :::::: Now i want an apology i did nothing but make fun of myself for suggesting the article refers to legion as a "the" it might not have been entirely clear but certainly dont think its worth a ban to make fun of oneself, what should be clear though is that i wasnt referring to anybody elses comment as retarded. If i was going to insult another comment i would have done it but i didnt. ralok 04:44, November 19, 2009 (UTC) ::::::Bah i dont need an apology, i am just very sad that my sentence was so horribly misinterpreted that it appearently almost got me banned from the webssite. ralok 04:53, November 19, 2009 (UTC) :::::::The reason it was "misinterpreted" is because there was absolutely no precedent or context given for your statement. The first and only time you suggested that the article refer to Legion as "the" was also the sentance on which you stated that it was the most retarded thing ever written. It was hardly clear what you were trying to say. Also, it was not just this one comment that almost got you banned from the website (one s in that word, btw), it was the fact that the statement appeared to be part of a trend of insulting and offensive statements that you have posted, which have, btw, only garnered one apology from you to date (since you brought the topic of apologies up). If you want to avoid having your statements misconstrued, you really need to be more specific. Contrary to your statement, the intent of your initial comment was far from clear. SpartHawg948 07:44, November 19, 2009 (UTC) :::::::: i meant to say "they" no the. And i have no idea what your talking about, i wish to continue this conversation elsewhere and not interrupt the legion talk page further. ralok 08:26, November 19, 2009 (UTC) :::::::: And please stop pointing out every obvious spelling mistake i make, thats just another way of insulting me, i know those mistakes are there, i have stated that i am a poo typist please do not point out a mistake unless it compimises the entire stucture of my statement. ralok 08:30, November 19, 2009 (UTC) :::::::: aaaaannnnndddd i messed up thata paragraph aswell mispelling poor as poo annd using the word another instead of saying, it feels like. I should have said i feel insulted when someone points out my spelling mistake especially when they are mad at me because it feels like tehy are just trying to use every human error to turn me into the living embodiement of evil, thtats the only rational reason if you were trying to get me to be a better persoon and less omeanor rude to everyone around you could have stated the facts cleaarly and calmly, instead you chooose to pick on me for mispelling website. Pretty much doing everything you can to keep me angry without comprimising youself. ralok 08:38, November 19, 2009 (UTC) Squad Member Confirmation Apparantly, the NowGamer site has been known to post false or speculated information before. Perhaps we should keep the character page, move his characters icon to adversaries, but for now remove any references to him being a squad member until we get more solid confirmation? --TheWilsonator 19:17, November 9, 2009 (UTC) :Well, I see why we would remove him being a squad member for now, but I don't think we should automatically call him an adversary. SpartHawg948 21:34, November 9, 2009 (UTC) ::In hindsight, maybe the fact that he appears prominently in the Enemies of Mass Effect 2 video does qualify him for adversary... SpartHawg948 07:22, November 29, 2009 (UTC) At least temporarily, he'll bbe an andversary; I mean, you never know with Mass Effect and BioWare. :Just a suggestion, but couldn't we make an "Unknown affiliation" tab for him --MPS Biotic 03:39, January 6, 2010 (UTC) ::It's been discussed, because he is the only character who would be put under that tab and also because all "official" media points to him as an adversary, this won't be done.--Xaero Dumort 04:23, January 6, 2010 (UTC) Source where the hell did you guys find this guy? I havent heard a thing about this dude. :Have you tried referring to either of the two sources clearly listed in the "references" portion of the article? That's always a good place to start if you are wondering about sources! :P SpartHawg948 19:19, November 18, 2009 (UTC) ME 2 Achievement List http://www.succesfull.fr/index.php?option=com_succesfull&Itemid=6&l=en&JeuID=594 Well, the confirmation seems to be pretty blatant. The Devs have stated there are 10 members of your squad besides yourself. And in the list there are first 9 achievements for recruiting characters followed by 1 which rewards you for "obtaining geth technology." Then there are 9 achievements for obtaining character loyalty followed by 1 which rewards you for "hacking a Geth collective" which is called, "A House Divided." That is pretty clearly a reference to Legion being part of a new faction of the geth which the Devs have already stated. :Well, there are nine achievements that state "Successfully recruit the..." THAT is confirmation. Then there is one that says "Obtain geth technology". See the difference? Then there are nine that say "Gain the loyalty of the..." THAT is confirmation. Then there is one that says "Hack a geth collective" See the difference? I mean, if we want to count "Obtain geth technology" as confirmation that Legion is a squad member, maybe "Complete the investigation of a derelict alien vessel" (the Ghost Ship achievement) is confirmation of a Reaper squad member. I will give it this: The text says NOTHING, but the images do strongly imply that Legion is a squad member. But until it is STATED, it's speculation. SpartHawg948 21:20, December 21, 2009 (UTC) :: Well Legion is technically Geth technology, so obtaining it is just another way of saying you get him/it, isn't it? It's stated that way to present Legion as an "it" a thing to control or use, not something that you would earn loyalty from.--Xaero Dumort 22:48, December 21, 2009 (UTC) :Well now that doesn't seem to be the case... remember that Legion has learned to think on it's own, so it's very likely that loyalty would be a factor. I mean, we aren't talking about a toaster here. And regardless, they could have said "Acquire the geth..." or something like that. Ans hacking the collective hardly seems indicative, as hacking is something you do to an ENEMY synthetic. Again, I do think it likely now that Legion will be a squad member, but this IS NOT conclusive proof. Nor is the fact, Xaero, that the achievement icon has a picture of a geth. Pretty sure there's more than one geth that looks like that! :P SpartHawg948 00:06, December 22, 2009 (UTC) :Sparthawg, it is pretty much blatantly obvious that Legion will be a squad member at this point. Nobody is saying it is conclusive proof, but Bioware is unlikely to give confirmation about Legion joining you until after the game is out. But they are obviously hinting at it and making the wording of these achievements ambiguous is just a bit of humor. Even if there weren't already sources stating Legion would be a squad member, there hasn't been any information going against Legion being a squad member. The info on Legion has stated that Shepard will need to go confront him to find out what he wants, which sounds a lot more like the mission phrasing used for finding the other squad members than anything else. And no way, a picture of a Geth for an achievement referring to a Geth. Crazy. Really thinking outside the box here. I appreciate the fact that the wiki page should not state that Legion is a squad member, but I think stating that is extremely likely is completely reasonable. Anything Bioware says to the contrary is to keep some mystery to it. By the way, ss there a rule against Bioware employees commenting or editing on this site? Spart, "Hack the collective" is indicative of Legion. Legion is for all intents an outsourcing of a crop of minds as given by saying "we", so in order to defeat the Collector's who would be a good ally? The geth, Legion is your in to the geth in order to allow a better force to be gained. Loyalty is not a factor for Legion anymore than it was a factor for the droids in KOTOR games, all it took was increased technical skills.(Please correct me if I am wrong here as my memory is a little hazy, but I am pretty sure this was at least the case with HK in KOTOR 1 as each upgrade increased his ability and would only work if I had the skill level to do it.)--Xaero Dumort 20:12, December 22, 2009 (UTC) :Ok, let me make this simple. There are pages here on this site where it is either or. Either Legion DEFINITELY IS a squad member, or it isn't. No room for "extremely likely". Perfect example:Characters. What should we do there? Make a new category for "Characters unconfirmed as allies but whom it is completely reasonable to assume will be"? Ditto for Mass Effect 2, and for the Mass Effect 2 squadmates template. What's going to happen (and has happened every time someone has edited that it is "very likely" that Legion will be a squad member) is that other people will go to those "either/or" pages and start editing that Legion IS a squad member, no ifs ands or buts. And they will use the same source that you use to state it is "likely" Legion will be a squad member. All I'm trying to do is keep all that unnecessary editing and the unnecessary undoing that always follows from happening in the first place. Is it really too much to ask that we keep it out of the article till we get concrete confirmation? At most it'll be, what? Another month? SpartHawg948 21:30, December 22, 2009 (UTC) ::It seems this may have gotten a little out of hand, I thought we were discussing it, I made no attempts to undo the changes you made to the edits as I feel they were completely justified by you to do (I know you make no mention of the sort of thing, just pointing out I'm not going to go changing things after you have made it clear that you don't think there is enough evidence from the source). I am just trying to say how I feel it points towards. If you agree, ok, If you don't ok. I'm not trying to change your mind Spart so I hope you don't think that, just trying to argue my point. I understand that the whole thing is probably completely frustrating at this point to a degree of loathing for what is happening with edits being made. So I guess, just keep up the, what I am sure is stressful work, you are doing and we'll see in a month or sooner. :)--Xaero Dumort 00:00, December 23, 2009 (UTC) :I think there was some misunderstanding. I didn't mean that you were undoing anything. I meant that, every time someone edits this page to state that Legion will likely be a squad member, other people make edits to the Characters page, the Mass Effect 2 page, and the ME2 squad members templates stating Legion WILL be a squad member, and then I'' have to go through and undo all the edits, as those pages are the "either/or" ones I was referring to. SpartHawg948 00:05, December 23, 2009 (UTC) ::Oh no, I understood you weren't referencing me in particular lol, I was trying to explain that I understand where you are coming from and I would not go against what you had decided wasn't a credible enough source. I understand the whole thing is just extremely frustrating for you, and I will do what I can to help.--Xaero Dumort 00:08, December 23, 2009 (UTC) :Fair enough! :) Yeah, it's definitely been one of those weeks. I can't wait for January 26th, and not just because I really want to play ME2, but also because hopefully then everything will settle down a bit around here! *fingers crossed* SpartHawg948 00:17, December 23, 2009 (UTC) ::And then they'll get crazy again with all the new information that has to be added. :p--Matt 2108 00:25, December 23, 2009 (UTC) :You're probably right. A man can dream, though... :) SpartHawg948 00:45, December 23, 2009 (UTC) The obtain Geth technology could only be obtaining a Geth Pulse Rifle. [[User:LordDeathRay|'LordDeathRay']] (Comm Chatter) 22:20, January 5, 2010 (UTC) :That is a valid point, as it was when I first made it last month. Regardless, the trivia bit does meet all the requirements for speculation, so it was deemed acceptable, as is stated above. Please do not remove it. Thanks, SpartHawg948 22:40, January 5, 2010 (UTC) Legion as a natural progression of geth I've been replaying ME just one more time and Tali describes the geth neural network as more akin to a sub-conscious and not a hive mind. It seems to me that a hive minded like creature would use "We" while something that just heightens awareness wouldn't cause such a bold proclamation. So maybe Legion is outcast from even the "normal" geth (with possibly others) causing him to identify differently. Thoughts?--Xaero Dumort 08:33, January 2, 2010 (UTC) :I don't know. I think something that had just recently obtained independence (through means unknown) from a larger collective would probably still use "we" to refer to itself. You have to figure, it'd be fairly new to the whole individual thing, and I doubt it would have any sense that using "we" to refer to itself is in any way a "bold proclamation". It'd be only natural to something that had spent the majority of it's existence as part of a linked consciousness, whether that be on the subconscious level or not. SpartHawg948 08:44, January 2, 2010 (UTC) : I have a thought, how does a mechanical lifeform have a natural evolution. ralok 08:44, January 2, 2010 (UTC) ::Ask the people at BioWare, specifically Casey Hudson. If I'm not mistaken, it was he who referred to Legion as a "natural evolution" of the geth. Remember ralok, you did not create Mass Effect, BioWare did. If they say it's possible for a synthetic (I don't think mechanical is the best term for the geth) lifeform to have a natural evolution, it must be, at least in-game. SpartHawg948 08:47, January 2, 2010 (UTC) :::: I understand the usage of the word actually, and i have no problem with it being used. It was just a passing thought. But invariably I feel that the natural order of The universe is not interrupted by the exsistence of artificial life. And in the fullesr of time that natural order will adapt to accomadate such life.OH NO IM VOICING MY THOUGHTS AGAIN, bad brain. ralok 09:08, January 2, 2010 (UTC) ::Well that was confusing... not sure what word you are referring to (maybe stating the actual word would have helped) and I don't recall anyone stating that the natural order of the universe ''would be interrupted by artificial life. To the contrary, I think that, quite simply, synthetic life would either adapt to survive in a rough and tumble universe or fall by the wayside, being destroyed or becoming obsolete to the point of irrelevance. Regardless, that's not really the original intent of this thread, now is it? Xaero asked a question, I answered, and then you started on a tangent... SpartHawg948 09:20, January 2, 2010 (UTC) Evolution is adaptation at its most necessary level. Regardless of whether or not they are organic or inorganic, at a certain point there is something that will say, adapt or die. Now the only factor would be, is becoming capable of individuality the next logical step for the geth to have a chance to survive, perhaps even joining the galactic community at large or is Legion in fact a mutation? Errant coding that should have never been allowed to compile? A collection of data that thought scrapped somehow got dumped and loaded into Legion. Wouldn't be the first time that an AI reached a point it wasn't supposed to. Such as rampancy in Halo AI or the necessity of data dumps in Star Wars to stop quirky behavior as best seen in T3-M4 or R2-D2.--Xaero Dumort 09:39, January 2, 2010 (UTC) :I would vote for the latter. I think this isn't some sort of collective-wide thing, but rather an aberration on Legion's part, likely as a result of damage (probably from the same incident that caused the gaping hole in its chest). Perhaps some sort of connection to the collective was severed, or, and I find this theory more intruiging, maybe it was some sort of inhibitor that was taken out. Something like a Star Wars restraining bolt, or in a better analogy, something like the neural inhibitors in the Cylon Centurions in the re-imagined Battlestar Galactica, which kept them servile and incapable of independent thought. That's my take on this, although it should be noted that it's purely speculative. I can hope though! :) SpartHawg948 09:57, January 2, 2010 (UTC) : You have an excellent point, what exactly is the purpose of this evolution. Why do they need to be independent. And how could a machine have a mutation if such a thing is possible. Maybe the gaping hole in his chest has something to do with it, that happened in a star wars comic a damaged battle droid went rogue. And is his obsession with shepard part of this evolution or his own individuality. And why is his name legion if he is and individual. And does he actually refer to himself as we or is that an assumption by the community. And hwo long has he been like this. 3 weeks, just 3 weeks. I CANT STAND IT, dear god help me this three weeks will be hte end of me. (my thoughts started trailing off again) ralok 10:04, January 2, 2010 (UTC) ::: I hate it when i comment on something and someone else has already commented saying some of the stuff i was saying in my comment that i was about to comment. (my brain hurts) Why are any of you awake anyways, its like five in the morning (in michigan), ::::This may come as a shock, but not all of us live in Michigan (thank God), which means it's not 5 in the morning for all of us, which means that asking why anyone is awake is pointless, as just because it's a certain time where you are, doesn't mean it's the same time where other people are. SpartHawg948 10:12, January 2, 2010 (UTC) You my friend are an incredibly lucky individual, the U.P. aint so ba but down were i live its is indeed a terrfying place. I just gave it alot of thought and i think i just realized that leegions purpose in the game is to serve as a meter for morality. My theory is that his injusry is what caused him to be individual, and his obsession with shepar is because he thinks of shepard as the perfect example of an individual, so legions behavior in the game may reflect your own. That would be interesting. ralok 10:32, January 2, 2010 (UTC) :That's an excellent idea about his obsessive reasoning ralok. And I live in Missouri, so not too far off from you, yet just far enough. And it is becoming almost impossible to wait. Playing Mass Effect again is my only saving grace, making sure every decision is the one I want it to be. And one last time to glitch out the paragon/renegade bars and max them. I'm interested to see how ME2 handles that, but I always have the paragon end visuals, blue and saving the council, cuz my decisions are mostly paragon, so...--Xaero Dumort 18:39, January 2, 2010 (UTC) ::: Well shepard is always in a way good, he is never really "evil" healways beleives in what he is doing. But if you walk the line beetween paragon and renegade i assume that he gets really confused at contradictory behavior. And another htought on legion if he was my geth friend, i would nail a spare panel over that gaping hole,or at least tape a peice ofpaper over it. ralok 21:05, January 2, 2010 (UTC) ::Just want to interject that you can't say someone isn't evil just because they always believe in what they are doing, or believe in the justness of their cause. Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, Pol Pot, the 9/11 hijackers, they all believed in what they were doing, and I don't think that made them any less evil. Honestly, the renegade/paragon thing seems most of the time to coming down to either doing the right thing or the convenient thing. Good example is Feros. The right thing to do is use the anti-Thorian gas, which saves the colonists. The convenient thing to do is to not waste time and just gun the colonists down. The renegade choices, while they may or may not be inherently evil (like genocide and gunning down colonists who could be saved) basically are along the school of thought that says the ends justify the means, while the paragon choices reject that notion. SpartHawg948 22:00, January 2, 2010 (UTC) ::: You have an excellent point SpartHawg, but I should clarify. I was reffering strictly to the first games common ending, the defeat of sovereign and saren. No matter how you do it, you kick butt and save the galaxy. And the entire time it was his goal to do this, and he always beleived that he was saving the galaxy. I should have explained it better, i will make a better effort next time. ralok 22:16, January 2, 2010 (UTC) ::Indeed you do kick butt regardless, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you are not committing evil in furtherance of the greater good. It's possible to do all kinds of evil things while working towards a noble cause, which is pretty much what happens if you do a straight renegade playthrough. Belief in your cause is largely irrelevant, and in some cases actually makes the situation worse and drives a person to greater evil, in that belief in a cause can lead to fanaticism. SpartHawg948 22:41, January 2, 2010 (UTC) ::: also a good point, reagardless, All sentient life in hte galaxy isnt exteerminated, and thats something. However i am a firm beleiver in the idea that there is fates worse than death. Hmmmmmmmmm, maybe i should think things through before i say them. ralok 22:56, January 2, 2010 (UTC) Ilos? Is the planet you encounter Legion on is Ilos? Because it looks a lot like it. [[User:LordDeathRay|'LordDeathRay']] (Comm Chatter) 22:15, January 5, 2010 (UTC)